Mobile Industry Review - Latest Comments in Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:34:33 -0000

Compared to roaming costs & even UK call costs, I think so. Don't you?

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:07:21 -0000

Good debate!

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

South77 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:59:01 -0000

Is that supposed to sound an attractive deal?

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

South77 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:57:59 -0000

WiMax in the UK. Dream on!

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:54:35 -0000

One other point. When you look at tariffs like flat rate £23 per month for all landline & mobile calls worldwide (i.e. from anywhere to anywhere) from DeFi, (defimobile.com), it's worth finding a WiFi hotspot ;)

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:43:27 -0000

In an ideal world ubiquitous 3G would do the job but we aren't there yet & I don't see us getting there in the short term, so a combination of 3G & WiFi is better than either alone. A few years down the line we will be looking at a very different wireless landscape. Need to throw WiMAX into the pot too ;)

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

South77 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:40:28 -0000

OK agree with the hotspot part. There are security issues there and you wouldn;t travel to use it.
But at home WiFi works great. Anyone can use it. It’s not geeky. It doesn’t kill your battery these days. It is much lower latency than 3G. Seems pretty popular among iPhone users.
Funny how everyone can use WiFi on laptop, but as soon as it gets to a phone, it’s way too difficult for us all.

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:38:15 -0000

Remember that Devicescape is moving more & more to be 'under the bonnet' & invisible to the end user to make it normob friendly.

I see the network sharing deals as a red herring in terms of network coverage. I suspect they are much more about saving cash than improving coverage. As you say, 3 & T-Mobile have a network sharing deal. However neither of them offers good in-building coverage here. I've taken to manually selecting GSM only (Orange) on 3 when I'm at home to stop the constant searching & jumping between 3G & GSM. And as for T-Mobile round here - it's shockingly bad. I've discussed coverage with 3 & they admit that whilst it's 'very good' outside the nearest cellsite is too far away to offer high quality in-building coverage.

LTE may be a wireless panacea but it's not here yet so not really relevant.

My main mobile use at home is now WiFi & .... it works!

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

Mike42 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:30:29 -0000

I don't say LTE is coming, everyone else does - vendors, MNO's analysts. It's a relatively simple upgrade for any BTS made in the last few years. It exists now in wide trials, with speeds in the 10's of MB being achieved under typical mobile scenarios, not inside labs.

Coverage is population-based, so 98% = where 98% of the pop. live/work/play.

You fail to mention that WiFi also kills your battery flat in half a day if left on. And if you session-base it, the startup/acquire IP address/connect latency is way, way worse than establishing a 3G connection.

Not having a use case for WiFi didn't stop Nokia hoping to take traffic off-net from MNO's, but it failed to take off. So now it's in there, but is the most underused feature apart from the radio ;-). Just because you can and do build it in doesn't make it a sensible thing to do. Once one has it, customers think it is necessary, and competitors copy so as not to appear to be cheap.

Security is not a red herring. No MNO thinks so. Securing the customer's experience is a major focus.

Realistic is accepting that People_Do_Not_Travel_To_Hotspots. They didn't for Rabbit, they haven't for WiFi.

/m

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

Mike42 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:20:06 -0000

So is walking / driving to the nearest WiFi spot somehow less convenient?

Let's quantify that we are talking about Devicescape enabling users to access public WiFi as opposed to their home WiFi. Home WiFi is a different case, but from an end-user setup POV still requires waaaaay too much geekness for normobs.

Ok, one needs to quantify the argument: my supposition is that indoor 3G coverage, while not perfect, is good enough and getting better. 4 out of 5 networks have major sharing deals underway that will see the coverage so good that T-Mo is going to *remove* 5,000 sites from their network over the next year. 3 will probably do a similarly large number, although their sites were designed from the start for 3G as opposed to T-Mo's, so might be the ones that get kept.

Incidents of dropped calls on 3G as issues for magazines like Which? or the tech ones have pretty much disappeared. When was the last time mass-media ran a "Crap 3G" story?

To me, the argument is completely irrelevant anyway. Public WiFi is only available in places where 3G coverage is usually perfect - high streets, travel hubs. It's usually backhauled by crap ADSL. You've had to pay someone for it. WiFi roaming is (after a promising start) now imploding, The Cloud locking out BT subs after negs failed.

/m

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

South77 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:00:10 -0000

"We are 2 years max away from LTE delivering true multi-megabit bi-directional speeds"... err, right, if you says so.

"3G covers over 90% of the population, 3.5G will cover 98% within 12 months (T-Mo/3, other operators are available)." ... so how is geograhic coverage, how is indoor coverage? It aint 90%.

The fact is WiFi is useful. It’s faster than 3G (esp. latency). It’s always-on when you’re at home or office, vs. 3G which needs to set up a bearer or has slow idle-to-active transition each time you use it.

How come all the desirable devices now have WiFi?

Your security argument is a red-herring. There are risks, but it can be done. Losing your phone on the bus is a bigger security risk.

I love 3G/HSPA, but you might as well be realistic.

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:54:53 -0000

3G indoor coverage is very variable & WiFi is still a good alternative. It amazes me just how poor UK mobile coverage still is. If the networks offered in country roaming that would help but without this none of the networks offer ubiquitous coverage. And I'm not talking about rural coverage - my experience is in London & close by.

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

Mike42 — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:37:49 -0000

But WiFi is *so, so* utterly unsecure compared to 3G, it's like comparing your child's wendyhouse with Fort Knox. What happens if a customer suffers a loss due to being hacked on a public WiFi spot? Who pays? Who handles the CS?

And *you* have to travel to where *it* is, and drink the crap coffee / rub elbows with the Mondeo Men crammed into plastic chairs shouting into their mobiles.

We are 2 years max away from LTE delivering true multi-megabit bi-directional speeds to addressable devices - which will be the same sort of price as the WiFi devices now. There are literally millions of 3G Data dongle subs in the UK now, and I've not heard any consumers say speeds have suffered for it.

3G covers over 90% of the population, 3.5G will cover 98% within 12 months (T-Mo/3, other operators are available).

IF they were here 3 years ago and IF the driver for access via multiple WiFi devices existed, then Devicescape would have been relevant....but they weren't, it wasn't, so they aren't.

And no MNO will have the customer connection over without a very good reason - and even owning their own WiFi isn't that good a one, as the customer can also connect to their WiFi competitors too. No, keep them on-net is the mantra these days.

/m

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

sevendotzero — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 06:19:34 -0000

It may seem redundant to you but with variable 3G coverage & capacity issues it's of real interest to the 3G operators. Hence seamlessly integrating Devicescape into their connectivity software.

More and more operators are seeing 3G and WiFi as complementary technologies and Devicescape partners are starting to use the client to load balance across 3G and WiFi networks. To reduce the data overhead on the 3G network, traffic is seamlessly routed over WiFi when available. Because Devicescape automates the WiFi network selection and login process, it creates a seamless user experience.

Re: Jonathan Jensen on Thursday – Devicescape, creating a seamless WiFi layer

Mike42 — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 05:13:36 -0000

hmmmmm...an app that lets you easily connect to a service that in the age of flat-rate 3.5G data is redundant, and thus that no-one uses....handy for uber-geeks (who could do it anyway), but the rest of us?

Nice, but 3 years too late chaps, sorry!